toyboyinaussie Says:

Jul 15, 2010 - I wonder if these could be built into electric cars, have natural gas tank built in to drive the ceramic generator and the electricity produced used to drive the motor. Natural gas being the cleanest fuel available it should help reduce polution.

dancaldwell230 Says:

Jul 21, 2010 - I belive Hydrogen is the cleanest fuel avail.

ronmann606 Says:

Jul 26, 2010 - @toyboyinaussie It wouldn't be efficient to compress natural gas to thousands of psi to store it in heavy steel bottles, convert it to electricity with these fuel cells, store that energy in a large battery or ultracaps that has enough max current discharge to drive an electric motor powerful enough to move a 5000+ lbs car.

ronmann606 Says:

Jul 26, 2010 - This could take over. Imagine if you were to build a city from scratch today. You could eliminate electricity generating stations and power lines with this technology.

getsafe1212 Says:

Aug 2, 2010 - @ronmann606 It's efficient enough that companies like google and ebay have bought bloom boxes, and are saving money doing so. If you think that large batteries and ultracaps are the only viable ways to store energy, you need a better education

ronmann606 Says:

Aug 3, 2010 - @getsafe1212 Just to clarify we were talking about using these in cars. Did google and ebay put these in their cars? Why are you putting down my education?

getsafe1212 Says:

Aug 3, 2010 - @ronmann606 I agree that cars are not on the top of the list of fuel cell applications. However, you said "It wouldn't be efficient to compress natural gas to thousands of psi to store it in heavy steel bottles, convert it to electricity with these fuel cells, store that energy in a large battery or ultracaps that has enough max current discharge to drive an electric motor powerful enough to move a 5000+ lbs car."

getsafe1212 Says:

Aug 3, 2010 - @getsafe1212 1) Conventional internal combustion engines have been used in public buses for years, storing enough on a vehicle isn't a crippling issue. 2) Pressure vessels can be built from light weight materials like carbon fiber 3) Electricity production using fuel cells can be extremely efficient, at least double that of an ICE 4) Batteries do not need to provide max power. Super-capacitors are used in conjunction with batteries/fuel cells to provide short periods of rapid acceleration

getsafe1212 Says:

Aug 3, 2010 - @getsafe1212 Google, Ebay and Walmart have solid oxide fuel cell stacks outside their headquarters. Considering the price of natural gas, and efficiency of fuel cells, they are saving money compared to buying electricity from the grid. I questioned your education because you don't believe an electric car (battery or fuel cell) can be built, and be economically viable. They can be and have been, you're statements are plainly false.

getsafe1212 Says:

Aug 3, 2010 - @getsafe1212 I should add that super capacitors are also very efficient, I didn't recognize what you meant by ultra caps initially

ronmann606 Says:

Aug 4, 2010 - @getsafe1212 "I questioned your education because you don't believe an electric car (battery or fuel cell) can be built" I never said that nor implied it, that would be a ridiculous and completely false comment, try to quote me, I said nothing even close to that.

ronmann606 Says:

Aug 4, 2010 - @getsafe1212 Your suggesting that using carbon fiber storage bottles, a 25KW+ fuel cell, batteries and ultra caps and an electric motor with a controller can be cost competitive with gas or battery electric cars? What about the large amounts of energy used to compress the gas, none of that is recoverable unless you add a pneumatic engine, alternator and some electronics. This sounds like a good competitor for hydrogen cars lol

getsafe1212 Says:

Aug 5, 2010 - @ronmann606 "It wouldn't be efficient to compress natural gas to thousands of psi to store it in heavy steel bottles, convert it to electricity with these fuel cells, store that energy in a large battery or ultracaps that has enough max current discharge to drive an electric motor powerful enough to move a 5000+ lbs car.." The you said ""I questioned your education because you don't believe an electric car (battery or fuel cell) can be built" I never said that nor implied it."

getsafe1212 Says:

Aug 5, 2010 - @getsafe1212 I should have said you don't believe it's economically viable. This is not true

getsafe1212 Says:

Aug 5, 2010 - @getsafe1212 Although 25 kW is not required continuously

getsafe1212 Says:

Aug 5, 2010 - @getsafe1212 By the way, a 17 kg Li-ion battery can provide 25 kW. Is that too heavy for a car? LOL

getsafe1212 Says:

Aug 6, 2010 - Correction: @ronmann606 Like I said, cars are not the best application for fuel cells. Batteries can provide 25 kW no problem

ronmann606 Says:

Aug 6, 2010 - @getsafe1212 "25 kW is not required continuously" Since your special, I'll clarify for you: To drive your conceptual natural gas, fuel cell, battery and super capacitor car as suggested by you, on the highway you will need roughly 25 KW continuously based on 385 Wh/mile@65mph. Considering GM decided they need a 53KW genset to drive a car continuously and have some headroom for spirited driving, I think my estimate was low if anything. Go to the EV Album website to see common Wh/mile.

ronmann606 Says:

Aug 6, 2010 - @getsafe1212 "By the way, a 17 kg Li-ion battery can provide 25 kW. Is that too heavy for a car?" A 1 Kg Maxwell capacitor can deliver 25KW, whats your point? I don't see how peak battery output relates to continuous fuel cell output of your concept car.

getsafe1212 Says:

Aug 6, 2010 - @ronmann606 I told you fuel cell cars are not a great application. The VW bug was 80 HP at peak output, which is about 23 kW, and it drove around just fine. You're point was that batteries can't provide that kind of power. 25 kW = 17 kg of li-ion batteries. Therefore 100 kg is adequate, no problem

ronmann606 Says:

Aug 7, 2010 - @getsafe1212 80hp =60KW not 23 (thats with 100% efficiency too. I never made a point that batteries can't provide the power, no idea where you got that from. I'm done here good chat though

getsafe1212 Says:

Aug 7, 2010 - @ronmann606 You're right, I messed up the conversion. One last question, you're aware of the EV, and the tesla cars, how is it you don't think a battery car can be built? The tesla car hits 250 kW during acceleration (granted that's probably mostly from capacitors), but my main point of contention with you is that you don't seem to think it's possible. I'm confused by your stance

ronmann606 Says:

Aug 8, 2010 - @getsafe1212 Tesla doesn't use capacitors to deliver energy, only batteries. My stance on electric cars is that they are very viable and I can't believe how long its taking for them to be mainstream. NanoSafe lithiums can recharge in 5 minutes. Even if the range is only 150 km, if the infrastructure for fast charging existed there would be no reason to buy an ICE car. The only thing I suggested wasn't practical was the natural gas fuel cell car you suggested.

ronmann606 Says:

Aug 8, 2010 - @getsafe1212 BTW the whole reason I watched this vid, is because I work in the compressed natural gas industry for cars, buses and trucks. The whole thing is impractical, and it only exists because there are government substitutes. I don't believe it reduces pollution once you consider the amount of electricity and oil the compressors use to store the gas at 3600psi.

ddchalmers Says:

Sep 6, 2010 - I dunno YU removed yr comment, @dzlk78, Given tat da state of Victoria in Australia now faces a hugely expensive problem of replacing all of their old rural power transmission lines - mainly with underground 1s - to prevent repeat bushfire disasters, dis cld Bcom 1 of da best alternative solutions of all!